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Ontario Pathfinder Society | Ontario Pathfinder Lodge Forum » General » Additional Resources Discussion » Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons

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Author Topic: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
p-sto
Pathfinder
Posts: 475
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Post Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 3, 2014, 17:04

So the Lungchuan Tamo looks like a pretty tempting option for a monk as a throwing weapon but buying upgraded versions seems like a bit of a murky area to me so I was hoping I could get a bit of clarity around this before my character starts buying them.

Ultimate Equipment lists it as costing 5 GP, doing 1d4 damage, having a 10 foot throwing range, 1 pound of weight and under special it simply lists it as a monk weapon. The written description is as follows

What seems to be an ordinary baton sheaths a pair of matching
slender-bladed daggers—perfectly balanced throwing blades.

It seems perfectly logical to me for a monk throwing weapon that it would be a two in one weapon and given the text I doubt that any GM will disagree with me on that should my character use the weapon as such. However, it's not listed as a double weapon nor is there anything in it's description that suggests you pay extra for enhancements. The most similar weapon I can find in Ultimate Equipment would be the Butterfly Sword where this is explicitly addressed.

These short matching swords come in pairs,
cleverly nested together to appear as a single
blade. Both weapons can be drawn at the
same time, and they can be separated as a
free action and wielded in both hands to make
wickedly effective chops and slashes. Their
thin, broad blades extend just 1 foot in length.
A butterfly sword has a hardwood grip covered
with braided cord, and a metal D-shaped
guard to protect the wielder’s hand. The listed price is for a pair
of butterfly swords. Masterwork butterfly swords cost 320 gp for
the pair. If you add magical enhancement bonuses or properties
to a butterfly sword, treat each sword in the pair as a separate
weapon (for example, adding a +1 magical enhancement bonus
to a pair of masterwork butterfly swords costs 4,000 gp).

Now if I'm getting this correctly that the lack of explicit mention means that buying an enhanced Lungchuan Tamo means paying for one enhanced weapon and getting two usable weapons. At low levels it doesn't really seem all that over powered in terms of assumptions. Two 1d4 +1 throwing daggers for 2005 GP or an adamantine pair for 3005 GP is still going to do a limited amount of damage. But at higher levels what happens if I decide shell out the money for an anchoring enhancement. If I understand the pricing chart correctly this is a 18,000 GP weapon and you're only supposed to be able to use it against one enemy at a time. Getting two for the price one starts to look a bit more like shenanigans at that level.

Regardless of pricing I think the weight and damage makes it a fairly versatile option for a monk who goes to the effort of getting the proficiency in the weapon but if possible I'm hoping I can get a bit of clarity on the pricing issue before I start potentially running amok with varying GM opinions on this.

p-sto
Pathfinder
Posts: 475
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Post Re: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 3, 2014, 20:23

Actually, having written it down and thought about it a bit I think I reached a little too far with my last example. If my argument is correct that all parts of the Lungchuan Tamo (each blade and the baton) are one weapon then logically they must be treated as one weapon at all times even if this weapon has the ability to attack separate targets. One anchoring weapon only has the power to hold one creature at a time so yes as a player I could throw one dagger at one creature and hold it if the weapon hits and in the same turn hit another and hold that one but as soon as the second holding comes into effect the first one is released because you can't hold two creatures with one weapon.

The logical extension of this is that the Lungchuan Tamo can't be half broken either. A double weapon or pair of Butterfly Swords are treated as separate items for the purpose of enhancing but if the Lungchuan Tamo isn't this implies that if one is thrown and the other is kept in hand and either is destroyed is some way then both parts lose their magical ability since a single weapon can't be broken in parts. At least I think if I GMed that's how would rule on the issue given the rules as written. Not sure if any more experienced players have an opinion on the matter.

Brian
Trainee
Posts: 55
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Post Re: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 4, 2014, 10:36

I'll have to disagree with you here. The Lungchuan Tamo is a single weapon. You would only get one attack with it. There is nothing in the light weapon table that says you could use it as a double weapon. The only thing that even suggests that it might be more is fluff in the description. There is similar fluff in the description of the Starknife, and you still only get one attack with that.

Sorry.

p-sto
Pathfinder
Posts: 475
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Post Re: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 4, 2014, 13:16

Well that's unfortunate but I suppose it's sensible that when the text makes no sense the table overrides (not sure why I didn't consider that). Short term it doesn't really affect my character much, it means buying 8 knives instead of 4 and a bit of extra carry weight. Long term I will have to think about whether it's worth investing higher level enhancements on this weapon. For what it's worth I think it should have been listed as a double weapon and in a home game I'd likely be asking that it be treated as such.

Also, perhaps it's a difference in versions but I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Starknife. Though it did lead me to look into the Chakram, which is suddenly making me happy that I made the choice to get my character proficiency in all martial weapons by taking a level in Fighter. Can't flurry with it but better than a crossbow in short-range and better range than a knife. Kyoketsu Shoge is an interesting example though, the language of "a bludgeoning reach weapon" sounds as if it's something they intend for players to be able to do but the table while giving reach says nothing about bludgeoning.

gnrrrg
Trainee
Posts: 26
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Post Re: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 6, 2014, 15:11

I would say that from the description you are buying two daggers that come in a special sheath. You would only be able to use one at a time unless you have a feat that lets you make multiple attacks or are leveled up enough to make second attacks. The table is giving the stats for a single dagger because you can normally only use one at a time.

For special material/magic abilities, they would be two separate weapons.

If you really want to get murky, I leave you with this - what if someone cast abundant ammunition on the sheath?

p-sto
Pathfinder
Posts: 475
Permalink
Post Re: Ultimate Equipment: Lungchuan Tamo, Special Materials and Magic Weapons
on: October 6, 2014, 15:50

I went to the effort of digging around a bit to see if I could find some clarity on the issue but unfortunately I didn't come up with much. I did notice that the Lungchuan Tamo, along with the Butterfly Sword, seemed to be introduced in Ultimate Combat. What's interesting is in that publication the Butterfly Sword was presented in the exact same manner as the Lungchuan Tamo. One weapon on the table two weapons in the description and no details on rules for enhancing the weapons. Additionally in brackets beside the name in the description the Lungchuan Tamo was called hidden daggers. I guess between Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Equipment the writers realized the sort of nonsense that can come up when there are no clear rules for enhancing a weapon (take my text above as an example). But they only clarified the Butterfly Sword and not the Lungchuan Tamo in Ultimate Equipment so it's hard to tell if they thought the weapon was clear enough as it was or decided to drop it as a double weapon.

It is a monk weapon so I'm free to do multiple attacks with it as a Flurry of Blows for my monk character and if I have more than one then I can even throw both in that attack. My character also took Quick Draw as a feat so it whether she has them drawn isn't an issue only that she has them available to be drawn in what would otherwise be a move action without the feat. Which leads me to ask, with the Lungchuan Tamo as individual weapons is it acceptable to say that two blades purchased individually could fit in one sheath? Say for the purposes of having two blades in one wrist sheath.

Unfortunately throwing daggers are not ammunition, otherwise that would be fun.

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